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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 1, 2012 7:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: So?

Here's the problem with your charts Monte. Mean CO2 levels without correlation to temperature is at best a straw man and at worst deliberately misleading. And while 97% of all the scientists in the GW/AGW/CC pissing contest may agree that GW is made worse by greenhouse gases, I haven't seen definitive, independent studies that quantitatively define "worse".

Here are a few charts of HadCRUT3 vs HadCRUT4 temp changes that don't appear to have any causal relationship with CO2 levels. Note that they span 140 years and not 5. Unless you are saying that all of the CO2 emissions from the Industrial Revolution didn't show up until the '60s. .75 degrees in 140 years??????

This one is particularly telling because it clearly shows that temp increases for the next 10-20 years are based on modeling projections. Except for the third scenario which is flat.

And you are aware that NG companies have been using fracking for extraction for almost 60 years? I can appreciate the fervor with which you are throwing down, but I also think you are cherry picking data and hot button topics that are only being reported skin deep and driven by agendas rather than facts.

Don't get me wrong. I think climate change is a very real issue. You think it's a problem that must be addressed right now. I think it's a predicament that is going to run its course whether we do anything or not.

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Poster: Monte B Cowboy Date: Nov 1, 2012 8:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: So?

I am not a scientist, and I don't pretend to be one, and I don't play one on these forums. I do know atmospheric CO2 levels are at 392 ppm and they keep rising due to man-made burning of fossil fuels. The charts I posted show this data. I am understanding that our temperature and CO2 increases correlate, and they are tracking upward together. Are you saying climate scientists have this wrong?

I believe in what James Hansen is saying. I believe in what Bill McKibben is saying.

As far as environmental investigative reporting is concerned, Mark Hertsgaard has worked for more than 20 years on climate change. He is the environmental correspondent for The Nation magazine. A recent book of his is "Hot: Living Through the Next Fifty Years on Earth". I urge you and others to watch / listen / read this 17-minute interview on Democracy Now with Mark Hertsgaard from April 15, 2011.

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Poster: Monte B Cowboy Date: Nov 1, 2012 9:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: So?

Re: fracking for extraction for almost 60 years

This evening I went to the Planning & Zoning Board meeting here to make public comment with others about all this gas and oil drilling and hydraulic fracturing (a.k.a. "fracking") coming to Fort Collins all of a sudden. There was an "industry expert" guy there who spoke and said the same thing as you about "fracking safety for sixty years".

Neither one of you mentioned that only recently, during the past five years or so, is when all this horizontal drilling technology starting being used in the field. Because of this "new" technology, and "the Haliburton loop-hole", the NG and oil guys are fracking "everything, everywhere." And I showed you the map with 19,000 active wells clustered in my face. Thousands and thousands of them are New wells.

Chemicals such as toxic benzene, toluene, and xylene are being used by drillers in their fracking fluids. Some people who live nearby NG (and oil) fracking wells are getting sick. Some kids are having asthma problems. Some adults are getting bloody noses, etc. These cases happened only after NG (and oil) fracking wells began operating nearby them. I think people should object to this.

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Poster: Monte B Cowboy Date: Nov 2, 2012 1:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: So?

Re: last evening, I went to the Planning & Zoning Board meeting here to make public comment with others about all this gas and oil drilling and hydraulic fracturing (a.k.a. "fracking") coming to Fort Collins all of a sudden.

listen to my village-idiot public comment - my comment is 2:49, mp3 audio


Last year on Nov 1, 2011, I was speaking at a Fort Collins City Council meeting with Occupy Fort Collins activists. We were asking city leaders to add more wintertime shelter for the homeless who are living here. here is that pic of me publicly speaking.

This post was modified by Monte B Cowboy on 2012-11-02 20:02:30

Attachment: monte_fc_fracking_meeting.jpg
Attachment: monte_2012-Nov1-FC_P_and_Z_meeting.mp3

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 1, 2012 9:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: So?

I have friend in the NG industry - benzenes and toluenes have been used since the late '40s, early '50s.

I don't have any experience with NG extraction and fracking. My gut tells me there are some potentially serious shortcomings with fracking - especially if done improperly - but in the final analysis, it's nowhere near as safe as industry experts proclaim it to be, nor is it as dangerous as opponents claim it is.

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Poster: Monte B Cowboy Date: Nov 2, 2012 7:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: So, what's the real reason Josh Fox was arrested?

Re: "nowhere near as safe as industry experts proclaim it to be, nor is it as dangerous as opponents claim it is"

People back east are getting fracked bigtime by NG drillers right now. This is a huge deal. I recommend reading this journalism report from ProPublica, by Abrahm Lustgarten, on May 1, 2012
A new study has raised fresh concerns about the safety of gas drilling in the Marcellus Shale, concluding that fracking chemicals injected into the ground could migrate toward drinking water supplies far more quickly than experts have previously predicted.

More than 5,000 wells were drilled in the Marcellus between mid-2009 and mid-2010, according to the study, which was published in the journal Ground Water two weeks ago. Operators inject up to 4 million gallons of fluid, under more than 10,000 pounds of pressure, to drill and frack each well.

Scientists have theorized that impermeable layers of rock would keep the fluid, which contains benzene and other dangerous chemicals, safely locked nearly a mile below water supplies. This view of the earth's underground geology is a cornerstone of the industry's argument that fracking poses minimal threats to the environment.

But the study, using computer modeling, concluded that natural faults and fractures in the Marcellus, exacerbated by the effects of fracking itself, could allow chemicals to reach the surface in as little as "just a few years."

"Simply put, [the rock layers] are not impermeable," said the study's author, Tom Myers, an independent hydrogeologist whose clients include the federal government and environmental groups.

"The Marcellus shale is being fracked into a very high permeability," he said. "Fluids could move from most any injection process."
There was a "book report" about ProPublica's investigation. This was posted to WordPress written by Iris Marie Bloom for Protecting Our Waters, a Philadelphia-based grassroots nonprofit organization.
Dr. Anthony Ingraffea has already established, based on PA DEP data, that Marcellus Shale well casings have failed at a rate of 6.2% in Pennsylvania in 2010 and 2011, causing immediate fluid migration (lecture by Ingraffea at “Marcellus Exposed” symposium, March 17th, 2012). But this new study shows that even without casing failures, fluid migration into aquifers will occur, and faster than almost anyone thought.
People back east should understand this means eventually these toxic cocktails are going to be coming out of their water faucets in their homes. The question is, will it be sooner, or later?

— Why was journalist Josh Fox arrested on Feb 1, 2012 in our U.S. Congress? —
Josh Fox was arrested for filming the Congressional Hearing on Natural Gas Fracking!


Josh Fox is the filmmaker for the documentary "Gasland"

The Academy Award-nominated filmmaker Josh Fox was handcuffed and arrested as he attempted to film a congressional hearing on the controversial natural gas drilling technique known as fracking, which the Environmental Protection Agency recently reported caused water contamination in Pavillion, Wyoming. Fox directed the award-winning film, "Gasland," which documents the impact of fracking on communities across the United States, and is now working on a sequel. Fox says he was arrested after Republicans refused to allow him to film because he did not have the proper credentials. "We wanted to report on what happened [at the hearing]. I was not interested in disrupting that hearing. It was not a protest action," says Fox. "I was simply trying to do my job as a journalist and go in there and show to the American people what was transpiring in that hearing, so that down the line, as we know there will be a lot of challenges mounted to that [Pavillion, Wyoming] EPA report—and frankly, to the people in Pavillion, who have been sticking up for themselves and demanding an investigation into the groundwater contamination—and to make sure that people could view that in a larger forum than usually happens." watch / listen / read an interview about this on Democracy Now